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  <title>Velocityme minutes 27.5</title>
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<h1>Velocityme Minutes 27.5</h1>
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  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Date<br>
      </th>
      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Venue<br>
      </th>
      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Present<br>
      </th>
      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Apologies<br>
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    <tr>
      <td valign="top">2003-06-13<br>
15:33-16:24 (UK)<br>
      </td>
      <td valign="top">AIM Messenger<br>
      </td>
      <td valign="top">Robert Crida (RC)<br>
Barry Radloff (BR)<br>
      </td>
      <td valign="top">David Spencer (DS)</td>
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<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:44:35) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Hey Barry, how you doing, what happened to you at lunch time!?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:45:32) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">Hi Rob, sorry got caught
in meetings till about an hour ago</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:45:54) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Do you think you will have a free moment to chat to me today? Or this
evening?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:45:56) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I have fifteen minutes,
because my lift wants to go</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:46:08) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Oh, OK, now!
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:46:25) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I have to check with La, I
will try SMS if I have more time tonight</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:46:42) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
OK, did you have any comments from my mails to you and Wayne?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:47:16) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">Not yet, I still am still
placing it in my mind.</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:47:36) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
OK, well what I have done is to ignore attachments for the time being.
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:47:56) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Also, although you can create notes and hyperlinks I am not actually
storing them!
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:48:16) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Couldn't decide whether to put them into Change log or their own tables
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:48:50) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I think their own tables</font></font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:49:10) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I think to scale them
later to all points they need their own tables</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:49:35) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
The difficulty with that is integrating them into the display, I
originally wanted to show notes in date order with status changes etc,
do you think that is reasonable?
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:50:14) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
I mostly agree with you, they will be easier to search etc in their own
tables, just harder in the display area
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:50:33) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I think that notes should
not be displayed initially, just a marker of sorts to indicate that
notes exist</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:50:42) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Almost makes me think that perhaps the change log is not being handled
correctly... Maybe we should revisit the XML aspect
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:51:05) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">the idea of a note I think
for ppl to put usefull information to a node without it being critical
to the node itself.</font></font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:51:31) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">yes</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:51:44) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
An interim solution for notes is to have a list of them on each node or
at least access to a list then selecting them from list brings up
separate tab with note on it.
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:52:05) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I think that is a good
idea even for the future</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:52:08) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Alternatively, the list could actually show the whole note, eg in
columns in a table
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:52:56) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">mm the changelog would I
think need a small table to handle deltas too, that way notes can be
added to it, but saying that...</font></font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:53:08) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I think a change log is a
type of note isnt it?</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:53:20) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
In a way I agree with you on that
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:53:31) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Has reasonably structured information though
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:54:04) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">what if change log was
derived from notes?</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:54:14) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Was just thinking that myself...
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:54:14) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">no no no</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:54:28) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Has problems though sort of cart before the horse
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:54:42) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">change log is to record
changes to a node at a specific time</font></font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:54:58) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">and to be able to move
back if necessary...</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:55:24) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
I am not sure how we are going to handle moving back, hadn't really
thought of that, more accountability and paper trail
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:55:40) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">Well then ift could be
handled like a note</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:56:18) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Hmm, a note is flat text, nmo structure, however you do know who made
it and when.
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:56:22) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">I think that the changelog
would eventually be a feature that can be turned off/on at will and
with user defined fields </font></font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:56:51) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">hence the admin would be
able to decided what to track and when.</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:57:01) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
It is debateable whether you would want to see the changelog or not but
I am not sure if it is a good idea to actually disable it...
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:57:03) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> <font color="#000000">am I getting ahead here?</font></font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:57:18) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Slightly! I am thinking Version 2 or 3
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:57:31) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> it depends some pppl require the 'footprinting'
and some donet</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:57:54) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
I hear you. Doesn't matter if it requires no input from them whether it
happens or not...
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:58:04) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Could be disabled fairly easily
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:58:13) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> yes</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:58:23) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Would save space in DB but I don't know what other advantages there
would be to not creating it
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(15:59:14) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I just know that some clients think it s a waste,
not matter how you try to convince them, its a client option in the end
I think</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(15:59:37) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Well, how about for now it is just an option not to show it
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:00:15) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I think that we should show it for now to prove
it works :)</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:00:29) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> add it now and take out later...</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:00:46) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Fine, and it is easier to disable viewing than disable logging although
both are straighforward it is quite a big change
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:00:56) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
I don't think we would ever take it right out!
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:01:05) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> with you</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:01:16) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
But back to relationship between note and change log
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:01:25) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> yes</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:01:26) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Does it make sense at this point?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:01:54) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> note is a flat structure, while changelog is not,
I still think we can derive one from the other</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:02:19) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
More like base object with user and date then derive note and changelog
from that?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:03:11) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> mmm</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:03:31) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Like it? Don't like it?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:03:49) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I'm trying to think about the implications</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:04:03) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Would a change log want to store flat text? Would a note want to store
change delta?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:04:16) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> the way I see it they both attach to nodes</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:04:18) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
That is implied by deriving one from the other
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:04:40) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Your comment is true, I should have said that base class is attached to
a node as well as having user and date
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:04:49) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> no note will not want to store change delta but a
change log may want a flat text</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:05:00) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
In fact Change Log is currently attached to DBObject
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:05:18) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Change log will generally be autogenerated so I don't know about flat
text
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:05:41) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Thing is how searchable do we want it?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:05:56) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I think the that a change delta is a note with
extra information, to be specific, concrete information not just text</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:06:20) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> well if we are just using xml then flat text is
all you need</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:06:45) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Back to XML is it satisfactory for our searching needs? Do we need to
be able to search change log?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:07:06) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> no I dont think it is I have a feeling that it
will actually slow us down...</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:07:21) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> then again the Q is do we need speed there</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:07:34) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> again I think it will depend on the client</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:07:41) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Do we actually need to search change log? Isn't it good enough to see
the log for a node and look for the problem?
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:08:25) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Can you think of a way to make the DB search within XML without picking
up on markup?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:08:28) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> in that case we can handle a changle log as a
note with a flag that says this contains xml info about a change for
node xyz</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:08:52) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> again back to derived from note...</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:09:29) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Does a note need to know when it was created? Shouldn't you find that
info in its change log?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:09:48) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> Yes a note needs to know when it is created</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:10:00) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Any more so than a node?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:10:10) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> other wise the note may be outdated and
superceded by another note with a person knowing it</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:10:18) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> a node not</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:10:37) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> without...</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:10:49) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
What about an issue?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:11:20) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> well an issue needs to capture the date to
determine how long its outstanding</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:11:35) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> but that may not be a creation date...</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:11:37) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
It currently does by recording in the change log when it was created
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:12:05) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> thats a little convulated and awkward to get to
the information then</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:12:09) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
OK, I haven't handled time very well yet, we neeed to know when
something is due or should start
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:12:24) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Alternative is lots of different fields
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:12:51) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I think minimal = no real information but max =
overload and junk</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:13:09) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> so a balance is needed we will have to just try
and decide what is nb</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:13:19) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Remember that an issue can go through several state changes and you may
need to know when all those happened, hence look in log. If the info is
there then why store it elsewhere too?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:14:30) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> but again you are confusing the issue here
because when a state changes you record why it changed and when it
changes, the changelog records who and when nothing more</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:14:35) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
To turn your change log derived from note on its head, I considered
making a note a change log and storing the flat text within suitable
markup in xml in a change delta
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:15:11) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
The change log has all the other information inside the xml so it can
be determined when something happened and who did it
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:15:43) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> yes but that is 'auditing' information the real
info must reside with the object not via backdoor</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:16:24) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Aren't you just suggesting duplicating data?
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:16:35) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Can't both goals be achieved with one table?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:16:41) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> dont confuse a change log entry with an issue
moving between states</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:16:49) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Why not?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:17:20) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> well the question is why audit a issue changing
states when the information is already captured...</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:17:45) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
But the issue only knows its current state so when you have changed it,
you don't know what it was before
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:17:53) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> the change log need not applie to all actions
only those that do not track the information </font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:18:19) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> not so, maybe the implementation needs a rethink
then</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:18:27) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
You could filter what information was stored in the log and only
display some of it
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:19:09) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> because moving from one state to another should
generate a db line</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:19:22) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Where?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:19:35) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> useing a changle log for that is clumsy and not
scalable</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:19:49) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
We would have to create lots of tables, one for changing state, one for
editing permissions etc etc etc
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:20:06) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> no</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:20:08) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
I would have thought that the xml approach was iin fact more scaleable
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:20:10) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> note necessary</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:20:31) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Explain?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:20:55) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> a table could point to aitself and refer to a
child relationship with another record in the same table, hence we could</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:21:10) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> build a relation ship of issuses as it moves thru
the states</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:21:25) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> its much fater</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:21:35) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> faster...</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:21:41) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> not fatter</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:21:46) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
So each node would for instance point to the previous instance of
itself as well as its parent?
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:23:00) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> yes,... tentitively</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:23:11) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
But what about all the link tables? <br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:23:20) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I have to leave unfortunately, Iw ill try sms if
I get a chance tonight</font><br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:23:36) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> which link tables?</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:23:39) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
OK, thanks for the chat, I will await your sms, otherwise enjoy
yourself!
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:23:46) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> later</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:23:49) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Link tables storing which permissions a role has for instance
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:23:53) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> I hope its getting interesting</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:23:59) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
For sure!
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:24:07) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Stirring things up a bit
<br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:24:16) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Bye for now
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><font size="2">(16:24:19) </font><b>barryradloff:</b></font>
<font back="#ffffff"> l8r then</font><br>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">(16:24:24) </font><b>rcrida:</b></font>
Ciao
<br>
<br>
<table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" border="1" width="100%">
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      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Author<br>
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      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Date<br>
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      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Next Meeting<br>
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      <th valign="top" bgcolor="#cccccc">Venue<br>
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    <tr>
      <td valign="top">Robert Crida<br>
      </td>
      <td valign="top">2004-05-03<br>
      </td>
      <td valign="top">?<br>
      </td>
      <td valign="top">?</td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
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